new version Minitioune V0.9.9.1

  • Octagon SF8008 is not a professional DVB receiver, so we know that this kind of basic receiver can accept errors without showing a problem, because they don't take care of timing, do not try to sync video and audio etc.... This kind of receiver just play the video data and audio data when they come, and don't take care of Ttime stamp.

    (This is the way the HamTV station on ISS was tested before launch and in result HamTV TS produced was very bad with no DVB tables....)

    Sorry, but my opinion is that we should never use that kind of receiver to test a DVB signal, it is a waste of time and I have never seen a professional operator doing that. It does exist professional receiver for that.


    Hi Jan-Pierre,


    I don't know why you claim we used OctagonSF8008 to check the DATV signal?


    As I clearly wrote in my post above, the signal was measured yesterday evening by one of the developer with an professional R&S DVM400 and the PCR jitter was reported to be below 200ns (specification says 500ns is still allowed).


    That is what I was told and I think these guys know what to do from their professional job and there is no need to discredit someone.


    Why you have different results is not clear to me at the moment and I will pass it to the team for further investigation.


    Thank you for your report!

    73s Peter

    Peter Gülzow | DB2OS | AMSAT-DL member since 1983 | JO42VG

  • Hi Mike,


    Yes, we are not denying anything.. we are just trying to better understand the different observations and facts.


    The "reboots" needed before the change on the DATV beacon have been tracked back and had to do with a bug in the Firmware which was fixed together with the DATV beacon change some weeks ago..


    I just want enough technical evidence before grabbing the "red telephone" to call the satellite control center to make a reboot of the DATV equipment.


    So let's wait for more analysis from our DATV team..


    73s Peter

    Peter Gülzow | DB2OS | AMSAT-DL member since 1983 | JO42VG

  • Peter,


    I have written:

    Perhaps your Experts have looked at the PCR PTS at another time in the day, but if they have tested it this morning, they see this very bad result.

    same suggestion than Mike.

    I don't want to discredit anyone, I just want to understand why I have measured this bad values this morning.

    I just want to understand, why we can receive many other stations without problem, why we could receive the Beacon at SR2000 during several months without any problem, and now, very often, we have difficulties to receive it without problem.


    About the use of Octagon SF8008, I though I have well explained why we cannot use it for testing.


    I can send you the TS I have recorded this morning, If your Experts need/want to examine it.

    and if their measurement is good , I will be glad to discuss with them about this difference and understand why I am wrong.



    73

    Jean-Pierre F6DZP

  • Hello,


    I continue to investigate.


    Problem summary:

    - Since we have a new Beacon_TS at SR1500, sometimes, not always, we can get a jerky video when we use Minitioune+MiniTiouner.

    (yesterday morning it was very jerky on my station, this morning video is not jerky...)

    - This problem was never seen when the Beacon-TS was et SR2000.

    - The jerky video depends also of the codec we are using under Windows, I have tested different of them, but when it is better, I don't really know if it is the change of codec or the change of the moment I do next observation after changing the codec..

    - We don't have this jerky video when we receive a DATV station on QO-100 (supposing the TS transmitted is well encoded)



    I take the two statements A and B as the truth:


    A) I suppose that, as Peter and Experts say, the "PCR accuracy" (not the "PCR jitter" ) is correct at the origin (+/- 200 ns) in the TS produced.


    B) I suppose that, as StreamXpert Analyzer says "PCR accuracy is very bad (about +/- 780 µs) when I receive the TS via UDP from Minitioune.


    Remark:

    This Beacon_TS is also a bit "special" compared to our habits : the PCR data used a separate PID. Most of time PCR data uses the same PID than the video data( in our DATV transmission) . Perhaps it is one (allowed) specification that causes the problem?


    analyzing the relation PCR/PST audio and PCR/PTS video seems always good this morning. EDIT : NO!!! NOT GOOD AT ALL,see later post

    but analyzing PCR accuracy gives bad result


    Can the way Minitioune receiving a TS with PCR using a PID different from videoPID could causes the problem?

    Can the computer clock, the Minitioune Clock, anything else influence the result?


    As I say, I continue to investigate...


    73s

    Jean-Pierre F6DZP

  • Very interesting. Keep up the analysis - this is good research. If everything works there is little more of interest to do, it is when there are problems it gets interesting. That's the one of the benefits of amateur radio, we push boundaries. We fail, we fix, we develop.


    One point we might consider is that this did not happen earlier. Now was that because there has been a change in the TS or is it because Microsoft updated their codec? Perhaps analysis of a recorded TS from the beacon prior to the change would be instructive here. I will look to see if I have anything, I did save the beacon right at the start but as it's such a high rate, I don't think I have a more recent recording. Maybe others have. If we can find such a recording a comparison of the differences might throw up clues as to the cause.


    Mike

  • by the way, I can see here that the video jerky reduce slowly after the start of the MiniTioune software.

    No matter what time of day. If I stay on reception, the jerking becomes less and less over time, after 10-15 minutes it´s gone. The video runs flawlessly.

    If the software stops and restarts, the whole process starts all over again.

    What part oft Software can slowly adapt to the TS?


    73s de Robert

  • Hi JP,

    as for the codec I can assure you that here the MainConcept video decoder always works, I repeat always, in an optimal way. In this respect, I have made repeated tests and I can say it with extreme confidence: the MainConcept video decoder never presents the problem.

  • Hi Lucio,


    My main question is not about the solution, we should be able to use different codec, I have tried LAV, Cyberlink, Elecard, MainConcept ... but this search is just a way to find a temporary solution to a problem, but the problem still exist. Some codec can work better on some PC because the graphic card, the CPU etc.. and other codec could be better on another PC . So you have a temporary solution that works on your PC, you have medicine for a disease, but the disease is still there.


    My main question is why the TS received from the Beacon has very bad PCR accuracy when I analyze it.


    73

    Jean-Pierre F6DZP

  • I have a little TS from the Beacon at SR2000.

    I look at it...

    PCR accuracy is also not very good, but ... but PCR/PTS timing is good (positive)


    OOHHH!

    Yes, I think I have the reason why we have problem with:


    Analyzing the TS from Beacon SR1500:

    not only PCR accuracy is very bad but .... PCR/PTS timing is NEGATIVE!!

    that means that the software ask do display video at a time relatively negative (= playback).

    So the demultiplexer/decoder do what it can to try to make up for the backlog.

    Perhaps this PCR/PTS value change over time and we get less jerky video.


    here are the PCR/PTS_video values for a good TS made by a Minimod at SR2000, the values are about +700ms, so we ask the decoder to render the video 700 ms before the PCR clock corresponding arrives, to let the time to the buffering proccess , decoding process to do their job




    Here is the Beacon at SR2000 we had in March: again the PCR/PTS is positive, we let about 450 ms to the decoder to do the job


    Here is the PCR/PTS timing we have with the new Beacon at SR1500: The PCR/PTS value is NEGATIVE!!!


    So a demultiplexer/decoder process can't go back in time, so do what it can...


    and not only the PCR/PTS is negative but the PCR accuracy is also always very very bad.



    Jean-Pierre F6DZP


  • Just to confirm same analysis here :

    Stream is not ETR290 compliant. PCR accuracy is +/- 800us instead of +/-500ns. It is not very smart but should not be too disturbing.

    Profession Dectek StreamXpert is used to do that, which is equivalent to your R&S for this kind of measure.


    The main issue, is effectively the -500 ms of PCR/PTS (It is not measured by ETR290). This means that decoder is asked to display a picture which is not yet arrived (500ms late). Strategy of decoders to handle this issue depending on the decoder.


    VLC for example, try to increase the input buffer in order to display later pictures :

    "

    main warning: picture is too late to be displayed (missing 281 ms)

    main warning: picture is too late to be displayed (missing 259 ms)

    main warning: picture is too late to be displayed (missing 250 ms)

    main warning: picture is too late to be displayed (missing 230 ms)

    main warning: picture is too late to be displayed (missing 210 ms)

    main warning: picture is too late to be displayed (missing 190 ms)

    "


    SF8008 could have also this strategy..but it is a workaround. As clock is not precise, we could then have some issue between audio/video synchronisation.


    Professional decoders (Tandberg, Scopus ...) doesn't allow for such errors and do not display a picture at all.


    This issue has already been seen regularly with 2MS beacon, and was recovered by a reset of the encoder/modulator.

    It seems that at 1.5MS the issue could happen more regularly.


    Right now, it seems that the beacon is performed by Raspberry looping a video and output it to HDMI whish is then H264 encoded and modulated by SR System. The system could drift over time and could explain such errors (long term stability is not so easy in DVB).


    We hope that we could make analysis just after a reset to confirm this analysis.


    As Mike said, we are a community which include experts (DVB for example). Goal is to experiment and improve system..thus, could interesting to discuss and exchange with "The" team to share knowledge when we have such issue.


    73 Evariste F5OEO

  • This is interesting. Evariste says the beacon is encoded in real time. Given it does not change I had always assumed that the audio and video were pre- encoded with the highest quality settings, multi-pass, in non-real time, latency not a problem, on some professional equipment and then saved for transmission. That's why the content never changes I thought. If it's re-encoded each pass then it could have things added to it, like a clock, TLEs or alerts.


    Mike

  • Yes Mike, the most efficient way would be to offline encode the video (double pass encoding) and replay it with PCR/PTS correction (for continuous time over loop). For that , it needs an input TS file on the modulator side which is not the case on the current system as it is design for HDMI live encoding purpose. This is a choice of the team...

  • @Jean-Pierre F6DZP I do not understand in the DATV vivadatv site many errors pr la password, some om asked for help from me !!! I can't do anything many ask me for PWD error, Jean-Pierre solve the problem ask for the new program the download I can't .....

    this is my answer some OM ...

    For the Scan & Tioune Minitioune v0-9-9-1 program it is not easy to download the author does not allow making copies must be registered on the site http://www.vivadatv.org/ucp.php?mode=register also wanting to pass the program I go against the rules of the author, I don't want to be rude Jean Pierre 73 Tony ik1hgi


    Nigel Reeve hat fine sir. ive had an account keep on requesting a new password go through the motion to get a new password but the email nver comes in my inbox any help on this matter would help me regards Nigel-2e0ehh


    Tanan Rangseeprom please help me for link to download install file Minitioune V0.9.9.1

  • Hallo Lucio,


    unfortunatly I do have the same prolem as DL5RDI:


    even if I am logged in in the vivadatv site I get an error when trying to download the software...can you send me the file via Email ? Walterdotjonatatuksh.de


    Thanks for your help


    73 Walter

  • Lucio,


    Could you delete this link and the file on your drive.

    Look at the license, you are not allowed to create and share this link.

    This Amsat-dl Forum also is not allowed to prose a link to download Minitioune.


    Since 10 years I have created this software, never an OM has done that.

    Please respect my work.

    I give it free for download.


    For many reason I need to keep the hand on download

    - I answer most of mail about Minitioune, do do the maintenance I need to now exactly which version can be download.

    -Some function of Minitioune work only if you are registered to VivaDATV forum (TiouneMonitor) , so if people can download Minitioune they must be registered and, download ing from Vivadatv I am sure the version they get. I don't want to spend my time to answer to people that cannot make their Tioune Monitor working.

    - If I correct a bug, and change with a new version, I don't want that people could download and old version and makes me difficulties to maintain.

    - I am the creator of this software and and it.


    I ask to administrator of this forum to delete this link.

    Thank You.



    To DK1ZA

    Quote


    even if I am logged in in the vivadatv site I get an error when trying to download the software

    After many test, I am quasi sure that you are not asking to download well when you are logged:

    When you are logged, you search in the index titles the part "Software useful for DATV" and "Download section" and you have all versions of Minitioune and Scan&Tioune you want.

    If you are just logged and use an external link to go directly to the Minitioune download post, you will not be recognized as logged, because you link can correspond to another logging session that is not logged.


    For people that cannot register or have lost their password, just send me a direct mail (my call sign at yahoo.fr) and i help you.


    Jean-Pierre F6DZP

  • Dear Jean Pierre,


    Sorry, it definitly was my fault. Next time I will be more patient before asking.



    Meanwhile I have tested and am absolutly enthusiastic about the new release!

    Thanks for all your outstanding work.


    vy73 Walter, dk1za